and rig up your own belt drive. Boost is built by pressurizing the air coming into the supercharger. GM began phasing out the 2 strokes in the early 90's and introducing 4 cycle Diesels that were more emissions and electronically compliant than the 53, 71, and 92 series engines. People ask us all the time if it’s better to go supercharged or better to go with a custom turbo kit or an off the shelf turbo kit. I would just study the building of superchargers and … Then again, a 16g or smaller turbo could prob do the same thing. You would think the car would've been pretty darned fast but never trapped better than 102-103mph IIRC. It's called superfugial (sp) supercharging and that's how the vortech and prochargers work. Compound supercharging was used on GM Allison V-12 aircraft engines during WW2.Either 2 mechanical blowers or in combination with an exhaust driven supercharger.This was used to give the 1710 cubic inch engines sea level power at 30,000 feet,no so much to add extra power.Other aircraft engines used multispeed superchargers with 2 and 3 spd gearboxes.The Germans used a variable speed hydraulic motor to drive the blower on it's V-12 engines. In the last days of the 2 stroke Detroit Diesels they used a turbo to feed the blower. T3 flanges are cheap and everywhere. Both superchargers and turbochargers do this. If the blower was somehow dropped out of the picture then the vanes ended up becoming a big restriction for the turbo to overcome. The three new components drop right into place, and you’ve got what’s basically a brand-new, more powerful supercharger for a fraction of the cost of replacing the entire unit. Anywho, this can go back and forth all day long. they are fun to drive, pull very well even from low revs, and meet emissions requirements for your MOT and also have great fuel economy levels. but the question is why even bother or bother to think about this idea? My book on Engine Management Systems has a "compound Forced Induction" chapter in it. The air box from the turbo goes directly to the inlet of the blower and the blower is gear driven off the front accessory drive. This extra air allows the motor to burn more fuel, thus creating more power. if the turbo feeds into a blower at what point would the blower stop and the turbo take over? Question, I've thought about supercharging beacause turbos are just to complicated for my taste; the problem is that superchargers are too expensive, turbos are far cheaper by comparison. im not sure how that would work though...ideas anyone? Replacing the Turbo with a supercharger? The s/c give your awesome torque off the line, but dies out in top end. I been in both a s/c subi (i own one) and a turbo subi (wrx), each has its own style. Most high HP supercharger applications are using methanol injection or other fuels that help get around the heat input issue. Nice score on the Autorotor, do you know what size it is? If you get 30-40 hp from the conversion WHO CARES where it came from??? The ultimate question in forced induction. Increased airflow into the engine allows the engine to burn more fuel which results in increased engine power output. Anyone have experience with supercharging a BMW. They took a toyota MR2 engine and put a turbo feeding into a blower. I could be wrong, but I thought that on some of the late 2 strokes the air to the blower was shut down after the turbo spooled up and the turbo supplied all the air to the engine. Automotive engine pumps come in two flavors: turbochargers and superchargers. The difference between the two d­evices is their source of energy. But the 'cost power to make power' arguement for a supercharger is truly lame. You will get better mpg with a turbo than with a sc also since as soon as you add any throttle, the supercharger is 'engaged' where as if you stay low throttle on a turbo you can stay 'off boost' Sent from my SPH-D700 using AutoGuide.Com Free App In every turbo system there are two sides, the turbine where exhaust gases spin the impeller to speeds of over 100,000 RPM. Mash the peddle and enjoy. Granted, had I gone further with tuning to really make use of everything I bet it could've trapped to 105mph. Forced induction engines typically use richer mixtures because they have serious intake temperature problems. I've only ever heard of a turbo feeding into a blower. Install a supercharger. Where the supercharger loses out is in peak power vs. a turbo (and the fact that the motors in question already have a turbo, of course). A turbocharger, colloquially known as a turbo, is a turbine-driven, forced induction device that increases an internal combustion engine's efficiency and power output by forcing extra compressed air into the combustion chamber. ?? Go with a small turbo instead (it's small displacement afterall)! has anyone ever heard of this being done? Honestly, a blown 257 might be the perfect auto-x setup. I'm a turbo guy myself I've got a 03' SRT-4 that is stock turbo charged and a 96' Neon with a 2.4L turbo swap. Lots of people seem to be interested in minimal-lag setups for their 2.5L WRX/STI motor, so why not just stick a Roots blower on the sucker? The compressor takes ambient air like a supercharger and further compresses it to be reintroduced into the motor for additional power. Has anyone removed the turbocharger and replaced it with a supercharger (centrifugal, Roots, whatever)?  These kits are designed to take all the guesswork out of it! If you run across a Detroit 6V92T or 8V92T then you've found one to look at. lol ^^ Wow, way to think outside the box. We’re not going to get into the technical details of each one, but hopefully this information will show you the difference between the two so you can decide which route you are more interested in going on you… The air/fuel ratio is generally not going to change no matter what you're doing with the intake. Turbos will give you more power but if your not willing to invest the time into doing it right and tuning out all the imperfections its a waste of your time and your going to tear apart your motor anyways. Superchargers function by forcing more air into the motor. Instead it uses the engines exhaust gases that turn the impeller inside the turbo to help bring in fresh cold air into the engine. IIRC the engine bay on a 65 mustang is fairly tight for a turbo setup, there is lots of exhaust plumbing and not a lot of space side to side. We offer low boost Turbo conversions for the MINI One and Cooper which are designed to bring them up to Cooper S (and more) spec. Pretty much everything but a sophistacated ECU replacement (had a chip and was OBDI). Diesel turbos only blow air, direct injection handles fuel. It got to be a pretty complex system but apparently pretty impressive. I don't think you could do it yourself for anything near cheap as the gears and machining would be rough. I did a search, and didn't see anything relating to this. Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo), Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo), Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain. Superchargers are so expensive that you can easily afford a turbo, wastegate (or pop-off valve) and ancillaries for the same price. You've got to have reasonable mixture for the conditions by the time the mix gets to the cylinders - or you're in trouble. Obviously, a turbo swap is going to be simpler, and be better if you are aiming for maximum power, but a supercharger does have some advantages, and if anything they seem to be getting more popular in other auto applications. At its most basic, a centrifugal supercharger is driven off the engine's crankshaft and feeds compressed air into the engine. However it is possible in supercharged cars. They took a toyota MR2 engine and put a turbo feeding into a blower. By far the biggest difference between the S and the regular version is the supercharger that the S features and that is responsible for most of its improved performance. Generated in 0.032 seconds in which 0.005 seconds were spent on a total of 13 queries. Unlike turbochargers, superchargers are driven by the belt off of the engine's crankshaft, so that's spinning in unison with the engine's. While others at the same time were switching to turbo from the factory SC and were putting down a lot better power (and torque). I've only ever heard of a turbo feeding into a blower. The blower continued to spin, but because it wasn't compressing anything, most of the parasitic drag. just another note on the gm deisel,these things use a LOT of air thus the reason for two turbos feeding one blower as the 892 v8 did.first of all it is a two stroke so it fires and produces power on every downward stroke and exhausts on every upward stroke,so you can see the need for lots of air,there are four vaves per cyl and they are all exhaust vaves,air enters thru ports in the cylinder walls thru the crankcase.the intake charge is pulled in to the cyl underneath the exhaust gases so extra air pressure is needed to make the eng more efficient as it is the intake charge that pushes out the exhaust gasses.there would be no need to have both on a four sroke eng as one or the other would be enough.the 2 strokes had no bottom end power at all,were made to be run at high rpm under load,incredible power at high rpm but not fuel efficient,they were putting out five and six hundred horsepower back when cat and cummins were still struggling to get four hundred out of their motors. Amazing beast apparentely. if this were a blow thru turbo/draw thru supercharger how would that effect the fuel air mixture? I would just pick up a cheap supercharger. That small shaft will break when pressure is applied to it. Naturally-aspirated engines have a continuous vacuum in the intake system, as cylinders on the intake stroke pull air in past the throttle body. Im thinking of swaping to an autorotor s/c. I've seen cars do the opposite going from a S/C from the factory to an aftermarket turbo set up. My book on Engine Management Systems has a "compound Forced Induction" chapter in it. Essentially the engine drives like a 2.2 instead of a 1.6! The centrifugal supercharger is generally atta… That's still not that fast for the money I dropped on it. Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.5.8. The blower carried the engine into the 3500 RPM range at which point the turbo made enough boost that the super belt was putting power BACK into the crankshaft. Hamfist told me it was only a 1l. with enough money and time anything could be justified. It would hit 10 psi just by mashing the throttle at 2k rpms in 4th gear (at least on the dyno) and would hit a peak of 19psi max. If you want to mess with your extra stock turbo just take off the exhaust housing and turbine wheel and stare at it. Beyond this though there's not a whole lot of difference. In addition to this, the Whipple bower is a twin-scroll supercharger, whereas the Eaton TVS supercharger is a roots style blower, meaning the air is compressed before being forced into the engine. By Collin Woodard. I know every + & - to turbo charging. sure anything could be possible. It got to be a pretty complex system but apparently pretty impressive. A supercharger also pumps additional air into the engine, but it is instead driven mechanically by the engine via a belt that runs off the crankshaft or by an electric motor. Reread Greg's post on the MR2 for gasoline engine application. wouldnt the blower become a restriction? A supercharger uses horsepower from the engine’s crankshaft to turn (power) the compressor while a turbo uses the energy in the engine’s exhaust gas to spin the compressor. Thank you. The technology is pretty neat and has been around for years on Diesels. (put blown six into the search engine-it might find it). Difficult to say the least I think. As for changing over turbo to s/c, personal decision, but it be a waste due to replacing all the setup for a turbo, ie headers, up/down pipes, etc... Now if you had an NA car like i did, then its more of if your bold to build your own s/c setup or if you just want turnkey kit. We receive plenty of calls from people asking what it takes to successfully convert from either an N/A or nitrous combination to supercharged for their street car/weekend racer. Well, I used to own a very nicely put together VW Corrado. Accelerating from low speeds, the electric supercharger kicks in briefly to force additional air into the turbo’s compressor section to eliminate lag. A few years back I read about a Variable Vein turbo they were using in a kit on Miatas and, oddly enough, Harley's. I'm not sure I'd try to do a turbo-blower setup with a carb. Any translation to potential power or cfm's you could provide me with would be appreciated. The problem is its alittle harder to properly do a supercharging setup. Both are different in terms of how they work, performance and cost. The supercharger will provide enough air until the turbo starts to pull a vacuum in the airduct between the supercharger and the turbocharger. The extra fuel promotes more cooling of the intake charge from the vaporizing of the fuel. now the question i have is why not use a small roots blower to help spool up a large turbo? In fact, the term "turbocharger" is a shortened version of "turbo-supercharger," its official name. Turbos use the high temperature exhaust gas to spin a turbine which in turn rotates a compressor. It is possible, and it has been done. 1.5L or larger? Any done this? If you are referring to an “on/off” switch, the answer for conventional turbos is “No”. Superchargers inline with a turbo are usually used help to broaden the pressure map of the turbo and provide boost at low rpms when using large, slow spooling turbos. So why not look at the option of a supercharger on my NA Subie? The most common situation that might put a centrifugal supercharger or turbo into this area would be at the conclusion of a high-rpm, high-boost pass when the … A centrifugal supercharger looks a lot like a turbocharger on the compressor side, and that's no coincidence. While a supercharger conversion is neat, I too have to ask the question of why? It has some questionable styling elements but makes an unquestionable amount of power. Forced induction engines use a pump (most commonly a turbocharger or a supercharger) to force air into the intake. Well said. The surge area is defined as the low-side boundary of the turbo or supercharger’s flow stability. :p. Cheapest method is buy an Eaton M90 on eBay for $200. in the end its comes down to personal tastes. i was reading some stuff on how some engines, large turbo deisels mainly, use dual turbos with the large turbo feeding into the smaller one to spool it faster. The motor is the same 1.6 liter, but the supercharger forces more air into … The turbo sucks down low but is awesome when it spools up and gets going. The blowers were a necessity on the Detroits to scavenge and recharge the cylinders and the turbos were added to boost power, unlike why we use a blower on a 4 cycle engine. Higher compression engines use direct injection (where fuel is fed into the cylinder at the last moment) as this helps to avoid premature ignition issues, and has been effectively used on modern petrol engines, something they borrowed from diesels. A supercharger is any device that pressurizes the air intake to above atmospheric pressure. Unlike a supercharger, a turbo has a lot more components that make up the entire system. Converting from nitrous or naturally-aspirated to supercharged? Put a turbo on an engine with an 10:1 compression ratio and watch it explode! Amazing beast apparentely. Whatever the reason GM decided to add a turbo to feed the blower it obviously worked but on the surface it seems like the induction system was more complicated than it needed to be. Forced induction refers to some way of forcing more air into the engine than would normally be drawn into it. Turbos are currently the de facto small-engine power booster because they efficiently run … Some are found directly after the exhaust manifold or much further down the line in the exhaust stream. with the blower creating boost quick off idle it seems as though it would work great and worth more power than just a turbo. Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc. I personally think changing a WRX from Turbo to Supercharged would be awesome. Those supers are designed for low RPM's too, you'd be talking turbo speeds which are easily in the 90,000 to 100,000 RPM range. Fast! When this happens you intend to rectify this with a butterfly valve that will open and allow additional airflow into the airduct. You'd make less power at a given level of boost than a turbocharger, but get more top-end than a small turbo without the lag of the big turbo (but not quite the big turbo's top end). A centrifugal supercharger is a specialized type of supercharger that uses natural centrifugal energy to force additional oxygen into an engine. It's been done on a hotrod here in OZ(Queensland)he has a ford inline 250 and a small jap blower blowing into a TO4 turbo.looking at the photo's on his web site(forgotton what it is at the moment)it seems to go really well! Two Turbos and a Supercharger Turn this 1965 Mustang into a 1000-hp Monster. Supercharger has a lot more parasitic loss and on such a small motor, turbo is muccch better. On the Detroits there is no way to isolate the blower from the engine. Anyway, 1.8L built bottom-end, upgraded and new G60 supercharger (dual sync belts etc etc) and 62mm over drive pulley (stock was 78mm). Also superchargers are not 100% isentropic efficient as they require a gear ratio to increase the impeller speed thru mechanical means, they're not direct drive like a turbo which utilizes the exhaust gases, also the engine rpm is not in a steady state work load. Turbo and superchargers are engine components that pump pressurized air into the engine via a compressor. Soon as you put your foot down she went from a gas sipping v6 (3.0L i think) into a torque beast. Both s/c and turbo provide different driving experiences. Its damn hard to intercool it for that matter. Zlib compression enabled. show me one supercharged 4 cylinder that makes more power than most turbo charged 4 cylinders. another idea i have is a turbo blowing through a draw through roots blower setup. Down the line in the airduct between the two d­evices is their of... Cheapest method is buy an Eaton M90 on eBay for $ 200 promotes! A continuous vacuum in the last days of the parasitic drag extra stock turbo just off! 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